Free!: Dive to the Future Episode 12 English Dub | Cut Bank - Kleine Morde unter Nachbarn | Watchmen - Die Wächter

DerPeter

Demon Girl
Oct 25, 2014
88
18
Because I might want to invest at some point? Basically, who are you to tell me to go away? Are you the developer? Do you represent them in a legal fashion? Are you their PR guy? I don't think you're any of those, so basically, you've got no room to speak.
I am the one speaking against illegally sharing the beta on the devs own thread. Who are you to defend those who share the beta here, especially when you proclaim to be interested in the success of this project?

If I put my money in the bank, I trust that bank to keep an eye on my money and have an explanation when it vanishes for no reason. If I invest in stocks, I have the expectation that the company I'm investing in will be making money and the value of my shares will go up. There is an inherent risk in investments of any kind, yes, but you know what the banks and investment agents don't say when your money is no longer increasing? "HURF DURF THERE'S A RISK! YOU HAVE NOBODY BUT YOURSELF TO BLAME!" Hell, you don't go to the board of a major comapny/franchise when you start bleeding money with that bullshit excuse. You make damn sure you can explain shit or start tendering your resignation. Oh, and then that company has to make cuts to make up for the losses.
How is a offbeatr/patreon project even remotely comparable to a bank? I am not speaking of legally bound or professional projects, I am speaking about two laymen wanting to to work on a passion project. If you lend your neighbour money so he can kickstart his own basement brewery in exchange for the vague promise that you will get bottles for free each year, then no, you have noone but yourself to blame if your neighbour fucks up and the money is gone.

You took what I said out of context and chose a completely inappropriate comparison to strengthen your argument, which proved to be easily dismantled. Keep an eye out for that, there will be more examples of this as I claw my way through your response.

Then there is a reason and instead of blindly defending bullshit, [...]
I am not blindly defending anyone. If you'd have a look at their blog, you'd find a comment made as late as january 15th of one of the devs stating that they are currently working on a new release and that they are holding back blog posts because of it, to release a new beta and blog post at the same time.

[...] you should consider why someone would be skeptical about a developer with a poor track record so far. Right now, you're blatantly expressing the kind of position that turns the majority of would-be investors away from something, and makes current investors consider pulling out. You're blindly defending a project that has been mismanaged and is now getting its just criticism as such. Defending it and telling naysayers to "go away" only hurts the developer. You might think, in your limited way, that you are doing good and helping; but, the simple fact is, you're doing just the opposite. Your next point in this paragraph is fallacious and utterly ridiculous. I won't bother attacking it because there's nothing of substance worth attacking.
I have never said that you shouldn't be sceptical. Hell, if you want to confront the devs in a respectable manner and urge them to at least be more open when consistently taking way longer than even they themselves expected, then I'm all for it! But I wont stand idly by when anons start picking on the devs or even sharing their beta maliciously when they are still very much active. Again, sharing the beta here of all places, is not criticism, let alone just criticism. Portraying it as such is just stupid and invalidates any other valid point you may have. And I know for a fact that unjust criticism and maliciousness is in no way helping the developers. Anyone capable of logic thinking should be able to come to the same conclusion.

You didn't even bother to look up the context my comments were made and you just try to generalize my argument when it was never meant to apply to everyone, only to give your argument more validity.

Not that it's any of your business, butI have invested in kickstarters. I supported the devs for Malice and the Machine and pulled support when the progress they were making didn't satisfy the investment I put in. I support for 6-10 months and saw so little progress and too many excuses to justify continuing my support. I invested in a platformer that launched a year or so ago and pulled support mostly because I didn't like the direction it was going. Nothing against the developer or their progress (because it was pretty consistent), but the content wasn't to my liking. I supported that about 6 months. I invested in a 3D monstergirl game for 6 months, even going so far as to campaign on multiple forums for the game to attain further funding and public presence. I've invested in a couple other projects that, for one reason or another, I've withdrawn my support from. Of those, Only 2 have disappointed me.

I won't bother with the rest. It's again a fallacious argument with no basis in reality and you expect everyone to limit themselves the way you limit yourself in order to criticize the project. Also, you don't need to be a musician to criticize a song, buddy. You don't need to be a developer to say something is shit, and anyone who argues otherwise is losing the argument already.
Good for you, you obviously know what you want and how much you are willing to give up to get it. I just wonder why you felt the need then to defend someone illegally sharing the beta then.

Fallacious. I've seen a lot more developers on this forum alone make better progress than the MoGi devs. Hell, ToroToro Resistance has released the third part of a visual novel and two parts to an rpgmaker with more assets, more detail, more everything than this game. The developer for Monstergirls and Sorcery has produced more than the MoGi devs. Zell23 has provided more updates. I could go on for hours on who has done more work, more consistently than these guys. I could go on for hours and beat you down so horrendously that they would need a an actual backhoe to dig your dignity out of the hole I buried it in. Basically, your point is not just stupid, but so utterly misinformed that addressing it further is bullying.
Well, you'd have to have knowledge of how development works to answer this question, but you're in luck, I will help you out. A visual novel requires virtually no coding work to be done, all you neeed to do is to use existing frameworks and add your pictures to it. Outside of having to draw the pictures and coming up with text, the work required to complete a cisual novel takes less than an hour. Same goes for RPGmaker crapware, there is a reason why they are all tagged RPGmaker, because they use the RPGmaker framework, which again, requires almost no coding. You can spent over 90% of your time and manpower creating art assets.

MoGi doesn't work like that. The devs write their own framework and if you followed them at all over the last 2 years, you would have know that the framework is what is holding the game back, not the art department. In fact, Veins, who is the main artist, is almost done with all the art assets, while Titan, the main programmer, is still hammering out the first of what I vaguely remeber to be 4 main routes the game will take. So why didn't they use a framework as well? Fair question. A question that could've been asked at the beginning of the project, a question that now is all but irrelevant, as you can't switch frameworks
mid-project without dumping all the progress you've made so far. This "flaw", of not only having to create art assets, but also having to implement the framework that turns those assets into a functioning game, is what is slowing down the progress of this game. A flaw that should've been obvious since the beginning of the project, so getting all salty about it now is way too late. Just leave if you can't wait.

And even if they are wasting time, even if they are incompetent, even if they are the most incompetent devs on the entire planet, bitching about them and sharing their beta here wont make them work faster, it wont help make this game become reality, it wont help them becoming less incompetent, and it sure as hell wont encourage them to try harder. So if you are only here to shit on this game and its devs, fuck off already, you are doing noone a favor.

The thing is, nobody expects them to release a stable build without bug-testing, and even then, for something unexpected to pop up because that shit happens. Hell, look at a majority of the responses to new/ongoing projects with a working demo and/or consistent build releases. Bugs. Errors. Grammar. Nobody expects a miracle of programming, writing, etc on the first try. Hell, the majority of responses since the developers of MoGi Origins returned to the forum has been "that's neat, but where's the proof?"
If you know all that, why are you still here flinging shit? You know it's not helping, why do you continue to do so?

It's not unfair to expect substance for such a long period of nothing. Telling people to "go away" and "you took a risk, it's your fault!" is not just stupid, it's utterly childish. Shame on you.
Again, you are putting what I said into a context I never said them in. My original comment was against someone who defended sharing the beta in this thread, you jumped in to defend him from my criticism. If you feel unjustly attacked when you were only trying to voice respectful criticism, then you should pay more attention to who you are defending.

If the developers feel "bullied", it's their own damn fault. This isn't victim-blaming. They are beholden to investors to produce, and, failing that, explain why production has slowed/stopped, or will be doing so. They chose to wait 2 years to explain this. You realize how utterly unprofessional this is, right? Oh, and don't tell me I can't say anything on the matter. This is a (mostly) public forum, and I can add my two cents if only because I might invest if they show a legitimate turn-around. You have no authority or right to tell others to go away. Don't like it? Open your own forum. Nobody will miss you.
No, the developers have no obligations whatsoever to listen to the bullshit that is being flung around here. For all I know, the backers gave their money in exchange for the promise of the devs trying to finish their game. They have tried, and they are still trying. If they pack up and leave, because you have been shitting on them for not trying hard enough, then you are the one at faul for the failure of the project.
You are not an investor, you are not a shareholder. They owe you nothing but a promise to try. They are not professionals, they have no credibility to worry about. Of course they do worry about their credibility, but there is no obligation on their part, other than having to try.
You are free to voice your opinon, but don't expect the devs having to accept it, don't expect them to be your punching bag just because things are not working out the way you hoped they would.

This entire paragraph is utterly stupid. First-off, you're a layman. Triple A developers are made up of *gasp* laymen. You think Todd Howard does everything in the development of every Bethesda game? Or Peter Molyneux programmed everything in Fable? No, those are talking heads. They have so little actual input in a game, and the majority of programmers, etc are generally over-qualified/under-paid nobodies you'll only know about if you invest the time and effort to look into their project history. Otherwise, how many programmers can you name who worked on Mass Effect 1 without looking?
Are you getting that desperate that you feel the need to make up bullshit out of thin air in order to make this post even more daunting to reply to?
An expert in one thing is not automatically an expert at everything, so yes, even the most gifted artist will be a layman at pretty much everything except creating art. The difference is that those "laymen" working at AAA studios have to be really good at what they are expected to do.
Titan and Veins are not. Titan is not required to be a gifted coder, to have 10 years of experience in game engine development, the only thing he had was the desire to create a h-game. And he asked for money in order to create it. You cannot blame anyone but yourself if you give him your money and regret it later, or if you are just pissed at how slow everything seems to be progressing. He has no obligation towards you.

Secondly, investments are a risk, but a risk with the expectation that I am getting something of substance in return. This is a basic concept that a child grasps, so kindly explain why it is so difficult for you to comprehend. Oh, and thirdly, this game isn't exactly a fucking masterpiece of programming. I've played flash games, Unity games, etc that share several qualities with this game. I made a point about re-inventing the wheel in other dev's thread wherein all these devs who try to build a new engine (as the MoGi guys tried) and only manage doing something slightly different to what already exists are basically wasting time. If the wheel already exists, you don't ignore it because your head is too far up your own ass. You take that wheel, paint it another shade or, better yet, tweak it to be a better wheel. Hell, this one autistic anon talking about a children's card game sums it up perfectly:

You are getting something in return. You get the promise of the devs trying their best to create this game. As long as they did anything really, they have already fulfilled that promise. Just look at funded but failed kickstart projects to see what exactly is owed to you.

And how exactly is stating the obvious, that this game is not the best ever made, helping you exactly with your argument? Does it show that the devs are no prefessionals? Well, no shit, I said as much about three times by now.

You show again that you completely understood the risks this project poses even before giving me such a shitshow. So why are you so ignorant to throw shit? You should know that it serves no purpose. It will not boost the morale, it wont make the devs work faster, so what is the point of your rant exactly? You get tangled up in your own cognitive dissonance.

Finally, the argument "b-but they're not Triple A" is also completely stupid. A Triple A developer fucks up, too. EA is living proof. What the consumer expects is for the developer not to blame them and tell them that they're the problem, but to apologize for the fuck-up, receive their criticism, and then say they will do their best to avoid that same fuck-up and actually mean it through their actions. That isn't unreasonable, either, and is a sign not just of maturity, but a commitment to re-establish the faith of the people you are already beholden to, and the people you hope will become invested in your product. If that's too hard a concept for you, personally, to grasp, then I can't help you. Hell, the entire tone of your posts has been that Chris Crocker video years ago where he cries like a baby and tells people to "leave Britney alone!" Hell, I'll even link you to it so you can realize how much of an ass you're making of yourself by proxy.
And we finally arive at the end. Remember what I said at the beginning, that you are using completely inappropriate comparisons? Well, you did it again. EA didn't fuck up. EA played a risk, and it backfired. EA could've released the best StarWars ever made, but they didn't care about the best game ever made, they care about money. If anyone fucked up at EA, it were the market analysts and CEOs. Nothing went wrong on the developer level. Players wanted EA to apologize, not because apologizing would fix BF2, but because they wanted EA to change their behavior. Asking for an apology from Titan and Veins is completely pointless however, it wont make them work faster than they already are, and just like with EA, if they are really just leeching your money, an apology wont change anything. EA is still leeching and so would these devs. The one difference is that Titan and Veins are in fact still working on this game, and as such my earlier point applies, making them apologize wont change a thing.

And I can just repeat myself, if you want to voice just criticism, do it, I'm all for it. I too would love the devs to write blog posts more consistently and more often, but I refuse to do it in a rude manner or to support people sharing their beta here.
 
Last edited:

DerPeter

Demon Girl
Oct 25, 2014
88
18
Peter, I've got something that's going to blow your fucking mind. Wanna hear the best kept secret of the past several years?
Alright, here it goes: This website.... has been sharing files illegally for quite a while. Astounding, right? So let's go back a bit to this thread's creation. A guy creates a thread to advertise his game on a forum known for (Again - typically illegally) sharing this sort of game, and you act surprised/offended when *GASP* THAT FILE IS SHARED?!?!!?
I mean c'mon man, your argument's been blown out of the water so thoroughly at this point there's literally nothing else I could add beside asking you to either move on or at least try to be a bit more rational in the points you're attempting to make.
I will tell you a secret: People have generally been understanding that illegally sharing copies of the game when the devs themselves frequent this forum is a dick move. And guess what, usually everyone is ok with that. But no, now you suddenly have the moral highground, just because you don't like the devs. Well guess what, they don't have to accept that and I do neither.
 

GMason

Demon Girl Pro
Apr 28, 2013
120
28
I will tell you a secret: People have generally been understanding that illegally sharing copies of the game when the devs themselves frequent this forum is a dick move. And guess what, usually everyone is ok with that. But no, now you suddenly have the moral highground, just because you don't like the devs. Well guess what, they don't have to accept that and I do neither.
That's great, but the file is still going to be shared anyway.
 
Jul 19, 2016
468
43
What the hell do you even try to prove? How does your argument even apply to the argument I and the other guy had? No, of course you don't have to buy BF2 to recognize what a shitshow EA is pulling, but as you haven't invested in BF2, you have no reason to complain about it, with the notable and completely valid exception that EA is an industry giant, whose actions will most likely have consequences for the whole gaming industry. If you don't want EA's shady practises to become the norm, then you have to speak up. Arguably you should've spoken up way earlier even, but I digress.

So, aside from making a nonsensical argument, you are comparing apples with the entire apple industry. Two laymen working on a passion project versus one of the best known and biggest publishers.
My argument is not that you are incapable of judging a project until you've invested in it, my argument is that you have no right to bitch about a project you perceive to be halting, even though you have no stake in the success of the project, as you haven't given up anything to support it in the first place.

I also never said that you had to plegde to their patreon. To the contrary, I said that pledging is completely optional and done out of your own accord.
But when people start defending others who are illegally sharing the beta on the devs own thread, then yes, my argument is that those people should rather leave than trying to defend those who are maliciously sharing the beta.
Also, nice comparison. Not having a job = not being able to judge the value of 5$. One would think it would be the other way around.
The reason I brought up BF2 is because fundamentally the same thing happened there as it is here. We were promised a product, something in BF2's case was going to completely overshadow it's predecessor, and the supplier failed or is failing to deliver. And what do we have to show for it? In BF2's case, one of the shittiest business practices of gaming history. In MoGi's case, not even a fourth of the alleged full game has been released to Patreon. How long has MoGi been in development? 4&1/2 years, and I've been watching it for 3. You can throw all the graphics and stats at me if you wish, but until I've seen some actual proof that shit is getting done, I'm going to criticize the hell out of this, which I have a right to. I don't need to pay money to their Patreon because I knew it was faulty from the start with their slow development. I'm not going to pay $5 a month for something I might get once a year. That might as well be putting $60 on game updates. I might as well use that money to get something more worth my time.

And not once did I mention people posting it here illegally was okay. I honestly think it's stupid to post links where the creator has free access to go to the website and take them down. A general rule of the internet: If it's on the internet, it will get pirated sooner or later...
 
Last edited:

Trizzle

Jungle Girl
May 2, 2013
9
1
I sympathize with their problem to a point. It's incredibly annoying to have flaky programmers on a project.

But they need to do something about this. If something is happening to the project due to poor employees it's as much their problem for hiring those employees as it is the poor employees. I understand that it's likely very hard to find programmers willing to jump into an adult game project that's already partially programmed. But they have had very few updates (2 real updates in 2 years) after having kick-starter (and then some stretch goals) funded and now are taking Patreon money each month.

As one of the original kickstarter backers I want the game to continue getting developed. But it's starting to look like it's going to be one of those projects that collapses in on itself.
 

darkwhite1602

Evard's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion
Oct 13, 2012
484
28
Remember when they got scammed by that programming company? Leled.
 

Cryswar

Demon Girl
Apr 14, 2011
100
18
I wish I could get boatloads of free money for making a new shitty excuse every few months for why I aint done shit.

Maybe these guys are genuinely the most unlucky motherfuckers on the internet, orrr more likely they're A. fucking idiots who have no idea what they're doing and shouldn't be Patreoning their way to the bank, or B. scammers.

Either way it's mindboggling there are people still happy to waste money on a game that looks as outdated and terrible as this one has been for years.
 

Krampus

Jungle Girl
Feb 8, 2016
15
3
What amazes me even more than that is that people are still loyal to these morons and constantly jump in to defend them. It's not like it's a high-quality, well made game either. Even if it were getting updates, it looks like shit.
 

Scrapman

Tentacle Monster
Jul 26, 2014
360
28
I sympathize with their problem to a point. It's incredibly annoying to have flaky programmers on a project.

But they need to do something about this. If something is happening to the project due to poor employees it's as much their problem for hiring those employees as it is the poor employees. I understand that it's likely very hard to find programmers willing to jump into an adult game project that's already partially programmed. But they have had very few updates (2 real updates in 2 years) after having kick-starter (and then some stretch goals) funded and now are taking Patreon money each month.

As one of the original kickstarter backers I want the game to continue getting developed. But it's starting to look like it's going to be one of those projects that collapses in on itself.

Hans't it already collapsed? suffice to say Future Fragments is making more meaningful progress than this. And that game has also been in development for years, though that game has been through some major overhauls on combat and a lot of other things.


What amazes me even more than that is that people are still loyal to these morons and constantly jump in to defend them. It's not like it's a high-quality, well made game either. Even if it were getting updates, it looks like shit.
I guess some people just really want to see this done. And for their sake, I hope they get their money's worth.


I wish I could get boatloads of free money for making a new shitty excuse every few months for why I aint done shit.

Maybe these guys are genuinely the most unlucky motherfuckers on the internet, orrr more likely they're A. fucking idiots who have no idea what they're doing and shouldn't be Patreoning their way to the bank, or B. scammers.

Either way it's mindboggling there are people still happy to waste money on a game that looks as outdated and terrible as this one has been for years.
Wouldn't be the first time people throw money at something that isn't working out. It is jarring and sad that they got scammed by programmers. But sad to say that is their own fault if you ask me.

The worst part is that they're not extremely busy in life from what I can peel together from their blog posts. Unlike Kyrieru, who has been through hell and hasn't made a blog post in a month, and his games are the shit.
 
Last edited:
Dec 2, 2008
1,489
113
I remember supporting this on offbeatr and nothing ever came of it. I hope they are really trying, but after a while, it just starts to get stale. Game will probably be outdated by the time it comes out. And it will probably only come out at about half the size they first pitched. Wish them well, but enough is enough. If you won't make progress, don't charge people. But it's not their fault, it's those who continue to support it. Can't blame them for leeching free money, we all need it.
 

HentaiWriter

Tentacle God
Oct 28, 2014
599
63
Future Fragments is making more meaningful progress than this. And that game has also been in development for years, though that game has been through some major overhauls on combat and a lot of other things.
Just to clarify, and to play devil's advocate here, we had a programmer who was absolutely fantastic for the first year or so of development. Did an incredible job on the engine, busted out stuff left and right, and more.
After that year though, a series of IRL issues and so on caused him to slow down so dramatically that we couldn't even release a demo for 7 months.
Nowadays, with the new programmer we've had for a year and a half now, we've been releasing monthly demos without a problem, and things have been great.

The reason I'm bringing this up though is that for everyone who's saying it's their own fault for hiring shoddy programmers/scammy programmers, yes, it could very well be poor research/choices on their part.
However, it could also be that for all intents and purposes, the programmers seemed completely viable to anyone looking at the situation from the outside, and they were just exceptionally good in hiding their intentions to scam the creators of Mogi.

There's also been cases where I've hired someone on who's had a stellar track record, and again due to IRL situations or their own lack of ability or free time to get the job done (underestimated how much work it would be/how much time it would take to get the job done when we're on deadlines), someone who for all intents and purposes was not out to cause delays or any problems with the project or who had a long track record of delivering on time and with no problems, ended up delaying us by not getting work done for long periods of time.

Again, I'm not coming to anyone's defense here, I'm just offering another side to consider, having personally experienced all three situations (intentional scammer, started out great but declined over time, and stellar track record yet couldn't deliver with our projects). We've just been lucky enough to find replacements for those positions that picked up the slack and fixed things, is all; Mogi apparently isn't as lucky.
 
Feb 2, 2014
487
43
I think the main issue isn't so much that the MoGi guys got screwed by a programmer having rl issues or whathaveyou, but that for 2 years they shopped around for a new programmer and hit upon duds twice before finding their most recent guy who, if the most recent blogpost is to be believed, has also dropped off the project. So, we're down 4 programmers now, very little content added beyond the initial demo, I can understand if it's a string of bad luck, but were going on 3 years, several hundred (maybe thousand) dollars paid into the project, and they just recently started a patreon iirc. Oh, and during that 2 year period, they also contacted something like 2 other programmers/companies that immediately rejected their project.

This isn't conspiracy.

Either they are really bad at selling their project to programmers/small programming companies, have some incredibly shitty luck, or are lying because they know they messed up at the beginning and need to stall for time while they get everything transferred over to an existing engine. I don't know, and speculation, while it's fun, doesn't really help anything. In terms of the content that exists, I didn't mind it. I want to see more. I just don't want to invest or get mine or anyone's hopes up because, unlike FF, the game has essentially been in hiatus Hell for 2, going on 3, years. Blah blah, "it's hard being a developer, you can't criticize" and all that fallacious bs.

Also, they say if you mention DerPeter or criticize a developer with legitimate feedback, he'll appear and splerg.
 
Jun 4, 2013
328
43
As someone who pledged to the offbeatr page and now gets nothing in return it's going to take quite a bit before I give these folks any more money. An Alice scene for isntance.
Also it's pretty funny how not one but two of their patreon pledge goals state that they'll make scenes for the chibi mogi and now they're backpedalling.
 
May 2, 2018
30
8
Well, they're kinda backpedalling on the main thing of the game. I heard they're removing the Rape on loss mechanic for something more Patreon friendly.
 

Captainstarfish

Demon Girl Pro
Nov 6, 2014
215
43
I heard they're removing the Rape on loss mechanic for something more Patreon friendly.
Ten bucks this leads to a 'Well, we've got some good news gang... we're going to redesign the game and make it 200% better! Don't worry, it'll only be a few months more...' situation.
 

TitanAnteus

Tentacle Monster
Dec 9, 2012
347
28
Well, they're kinda backpedalling on the main thing of the game. I heard they're removing the Rape on loss mechanic for something more Patreon friendly.
That is not the case. The sex scenes are sex battles. You still get raped on loss but when you win you defeat them.
We're only reframing the hostage rapes to become map scenes. The game mechanically will not change. The reason the re-framing happened in the first place was because we even used the word "rape." That's all Patreon was really worried about.

Ten bucks this leads to a 'Well, we've got some good news gang... we're going to redesign the game and make it 200% better! Don't worry, it'll only be a few months more...' situation.
We're nearing the end of they Cyclops boss's development. Our level designer helpers are working a little slow, but the next update really will arrive soon, even if we don't include too many more areas to run around in.

As someone who pledged to the offbeatr page and now gets nothing in return it's going to take quite a bit before I give these folks any more money. An Alice scene for isntance.
Also it's pretty funny how not one but two of their patreon pledge goals state that they'll make scenes for the chibi mogi and now they're backpedalling.
We have literally never said that the chibi characters would get scenes. Never. The reason they've already been included in the game is because there was no intention of giving them any adult exposure. We said we'd add them to the game. Adding them to the game doesn't equal giving them adult scenes. In fact, Offbeatr was really strict on the part of making sure there was no adult content of minors in any way, and we agreed to those terms for our game from back then.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
SiphonTalvesh Citadel of Corruption 58

Similar threads